Ted Henley:                        Should your driver’s license, say, if you’re a Canadian citizen, I’m Ted Henley. This is Alberta At noon, starting next year, Alberta will become the first province to make it mandatory to identify who’s a Canadian citizen on their driver’s license or Alberta ID card. Here’s Premier Danielle Smith.

Danielle Smith:                  Why are we doing this? Because we believe in making things better, faster, and more convenient for everyone.

Ted Henley:                        Service Alberta and Red Tape Reduction Minister Dale Nally explains what the marker will look like.

Dale Nally:                           The citizenship marker will follow international standards and will be displayed as a simple CAN code on your card. Are you

Ted Henley:                        Okay with this? Do you agree with the mandatory change? And good afternoon. Welcome to Alberta at noon. My name is Ted Henley, filling in for Kathleen Petty. This week we’re talking about changes coming to Alberta driver’s licenses and ID cards starting in late 2026. It will be mandatory to prove your citizenship when renewing or applying for a brand new ID or driver’s license. If you are a Canadian citizen, that will be displayed. If you are not Canadian or you are a permanent resident, there will be no marker on your license or id

Danielle Smith:                  Knowing that you’d have to dig up your citizenship for some of the programs that we referenced. A assured income for the severely handicapped person with developmental DI disabilities student aid. They those individuals trying to seek those programs have to do it anyway, so this will just make it a lot easier for them.

Ted Henley:                        The citizenship marker will show up on licenses and Alberta ID cards right around the same time, Alberta Health numbers will start being displayed on licenses and Alberta IDs. And the Premier says this will help crack down on the fact there are more Alberta Health numbers than the number of people living in the province.

Danielle Smith:                  It’s 530,438 based on the population estimates from 2025. And I guess we’ll find out as we go along. I mean that’s, that’s one of the things that is a bit of a mystery to us is we don’t think that there has been very good record keeping by Alberta Health Services in this regard. It’s part of the reason why we’re taking more of these roles back into government so that we can get a better line of sight on these things.

Ted Henley:                        The Premier adds the citizenship marker will also help when it comes time to vote in an election. Are you comfortable with having your citizenship on your license? Will you find it convenient? Are you worried perhaps, about discrimination against people who do not have a CAN for Canadian on their id? 1-866-468-FOUR four two two one eight six six four six eight forty four twenty two. Call in. We want to hear your thoughts on this. Do you want perhaps to have to prove your citizenship to simply drive a vehicle in our province? 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2. Do you trust the government here and what they’re trying to achieve? 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2 Or of course, you can always email us your thoughts to alberta@noonatcbc.ca. Dale o’ Nally is the Minister of Service Alberta and Red Tape Production and Minister Nally is joining me via Zoom this afternoon. Minister, welcome to the program.

Dale Nally:                           Hi, Ted. Thanks for having me.

Ted Henley:                        We played a few clips there from yesterday’s news conference minister, but I wanna ask, you know, fresh from the mouth, so to speak, what are you trying to achieve here? By making driver’s licenses and ID cards say, who is a Canadian citizen?

Dale Nally:                           This, this is an initiative, Ted, that pure and simple is about making it easier for Albertans to apply for services and, and it’s gonna allow them to have less identification in their wallet because it’s gonna be displayed on their driver’s license.

Ted Henley:                        So you’ll just have to carry around, in theory, the one piece of id and you’ll have your, not only your driving credentials, but you’ll have your Alberta Health number and you will have your citizenship on there.

Dale Nally:                           Exactly. And listen, as legislators, we speak to our constituents on a daily basis. And this is something that we’ve heard from them many times Albertans want less identification in their wallet, not more. And this is gonna meet that need.

Ted Henley:                        Minister respectfully, you’re gonna be creating two groups within the province here. You’re gonna be creating people who have on their Alberta ID or driver’s license, the CAN signifying their citizenship as Canadian. Or you’re gonna have people without that signification are, are you concerned at all of discrimination for the people who have that blank spot on their id?

Dale Nally:                           Well, no, not at all. Let me ask you this question, Chad, because 67 jurisdictions around the world currently do this. So is it discriminatory when Japan does it or is it discriminatory when Brazil does it or, or Spain or Italy? And so of course not. So I, I’ve heard these I’ve heard these concerns and, and I just wonder why is it only discriminatory when Alberta wants to do it? This is, this is a process that we’re putting in place that’s gonna make it simpler for Albertans when trying to apply for benefits.

Ted Henley:                        I understand the convenience argument, minister, but there will be two groups of people, which leaves the door open to possible discrimination for whatever reasons that people may decide to discriminate if they choose to do that. So how can you definitively say that it will not be happening

Dale Nally:                           Because we live in Canada? There will be no discrimination. This is a process that is pure and simple about making it easier for Albertans when applying for benefits.

Ted Henley:                        Permanent Residence Minister are also eligible for a and Student Aid and Alberta Healthcare and the persons with Developmental disabilities program. If this is about reducing paperwork and making it more convenient why not include them in this, you know, marker?

Dale Nally:                           Well, fir, first of all, I, I think that one of the things that stops this from being discriminatory is we’re not putting every designation on there. It’s not gonna have citizenship or permanent resident or refugee or working or student visa. We’re not doing that. What we’re putting on there is the international recognized designation of CAN and we’re not putting anything else. And so that way people won’t know if someone is a refugee or, or a student or any other designation. It’s gonna be CAN or, or nothing.

Ted Henley:                        So they’ll just know if you’re CAN or other.

Dale Nally:                           That’s right.

Ted Henley:                        Okay. are you adding this information minister to the Alberta ID card or the driver’s license because you’re concerned about election fraud, voter fraud, that type of thing?

Dale Nally:                           Well, if you’re, if you’re asking me if there’s a, a benefit to the security of, of the voting, the answer is yes. But the reason that we’re doing this is because Albertans have told us that they would like to have less identification in their wallet. And, and, and this is, this, is government making it simpler for Alberts to apply for benefits and, and will it add adds security to the election process? Absolutely. But that’s not the only reason we’re doing it.

Ted Henley:                        Oh, can you elaborate?

Dale Nally:                           Can I elaborate on why we’re doing it? Yeah, but because in addition to the, the fact that it’s gonna make you know, the, the verification of identification more secure and simpler it’s gonna make it easier for Albertans when they’re applying for any type of government program or or citizenship entitlements

Ted Henley:                        Minister the Alberta Next panel you know, holding town halls around the province. I, I, I’ve lost track of how many have been happening right now. The most recent, I believe, was an airdrie just north of Calgary. And one of the ideas being batted around as part of the Alberta Next Panel discussions is the province going on its own and creating its own immigration system. Is this the first step toward that

Dale Nally:                           <Laugh>? So I I, I, I’m, I’m laughing because government doesn’t operate that quickly. <Laugh> and, and, and so we, we have been working on this initiative well before the, the next panels were, were being planned. So, so the answer is no. There’s, there’s no there’s no correlation here.

Ted Henley:                        There’s no connection. All right. And minister people, you know, when, when you rent an apartment or, you know, in some cases, depending on the position you’re applying for, it could be involved in a applying for a job, you know, showing your driver’s license or, or your Alberta ID if you, if you’re not able to drive. Do you understand, sir, that people, when they’re showing this to employers, that employers are getting more information now other than just, you know, your address and, and that type of information that’s currently on driver’s licenses?

Dale Nally:                           Again, there, there are 67 jurisdictions around the world that are doing this, and Japan doesn’t have a problem when they do it. And, and Brazil and, and every other country that’s doing it doesn’t seem to have this problem. So I’ve I’m, I’m not concerned about about discrimination because we’re not putting other designations on there. It’s just gonna be the internationally recognized symbol of CAN. But at the end of the day, this will, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll do what we want, we, what we intended to do, which is to make it easier for Albertans when applying for benefits.

Ted Henley:                        And, and finally, minister, have, have dates been decided yet as to, you know, specifically when Albertans can expect these changes to roll out?

Dale Nally:                           Well, we’re gonna need to put some enabling legislation in in the fall. And, and then we can see this come together in the fall of 2026.

Ted Henley:                        So next year later, 2026. Alright. Gotcha. Thank you, minister. Anything else before I let you go, sir?

Dale Nally:                           No, I think that was pretty pretty thorough. Thanks for having me.

Ted Henley:                        You’re welcome. Have a great afternoon. That’s service Alberta and Red Tape Reduction Minister Dale Nally. There. He was joining me via Zoom. We’re talking about changes coming late next year, as you just heard, for when you renew or apply to get a brand new driver’s license or Alberta ID card starting next year, you will have to prove your citizenship. And if you’re Canadian, it will be displayed that fact on your id, A CAN in capital letters up near the top right corner area there. Are you comfortable with this, with having your citizenship on your license? Will you find it convenient? Are you concerned at all about potential discrimination here? 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2, or you can email your thoughts to us at alberta@noonatcbc.ca. Raj Sharma is an immigration lawyer in based out of Calgary with Stewart Sharma Harsanyi, and Raj has been listening into the conversation since the beginning of the program. Raj, thank you for coming on the show today.

Raj Sharma:                        My pleasure.

Ted Henley:                        As an immigration lawyer, what do you think about what we just heard from the minister there?

Raj Sharma:                        Well, it’s it’s, it’s, I’m concerned that that this is more performative or more politics than it is policy. The minister mentioned twice that there’s 67 jurisdictions around the world that do this. And so what’s the problem for Alberta? Now, out of the 67 jurisdiction around the world, you’ll note that there’s various countries such as Pakistan that actually indicate your religion on, on a state issued ID the passport. Lebanon used to indicate religion as well, and for good reason, stop doing that. But instead of looking at the 67 jurisdictions around the world, that indicates citizenship on a driver’s license, perhaps we should look at the other provinces in Canada that do not. Alberta would be the first province to indicate citizenship on its license. So BC with a bigger population, perhaps a more mobile population, doesn’t see the need to doing the, so neither does Ontario.

So this would be a first for Canada. And ostensibly the minister indicates that the reason is that Albertans want one less piece of ID in their wallet. And I would agree that that is a, that would be convenient, that would be a benefit, but it, it just doesn’t really add up. So citizenship on a driver’s license doesn’t actually assist in terms of the benefits for age or PDD or, or even applying for student aid because all of those programs or social services are available to permanent residents as well. And in the case of student aid also available to protected persons if there’s an issue with the healthcare system or healthcare cards, then the healthcare card should be improved. But what we hear or what we see right now is a little bit disconcerting because we’re looking for evidence from jurisdiction 67 jurisdictions around the world, and we’re not looking to what our neighbors actually do.

Ted Henley:                        Just to clarify, Alberta’s gonna become the first province to make it mandatory to have this citizenship marker on there. Just for everyone listening, Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, BC all once featured it was an elective program. They’ve all since stopped. I think BC is the last one kind of winding at their program down in September. And that mandatory fact, Raj, is that what you have a big issue with here, or do you think that there’s something else going on?

Raj Sharma:                        Well, the minister indicates that this is Canada, and therefore there will be no discrimination. But we know that discrimination happens, whether that’s implicit or explicit. Now, when you look at the racialized impact, it, it’s going to be racialized impact because the vast majority of permanent residents or non-citizens are going to be individuals from Asia, Africa, and Latin America. That’s about 70% of recent arrivals. So that driver’s license is used for a lot of things. You’re gonna bring it out when you check into a hotel. You’re gonna potentially use it when you’re accessing other services or, or even employment or getting rental accommodations. So there’s nothing that’s going to stop someone from potentially denying a benefit based on your, your place of origin or your nationality.

Ted Henley:                        What do you make of the argument, Raj, that this is gonna reduce, you know, red tape and you know, cut down on ID for Albertans? I mean, do, do you see validity here or

Raj Sharma:                        Ab Absolutely. I, I, I concur. But you really have to look at what problem are they trying to solve. Now, ostensibly, the minister didn’t say this today, but the news articles that I’ve indicated was that, that, you know, benefits in terms of electoral irregularities or combating electoral issues was one of them, or issues in terms of access to health services. So you can see that that type of rhetoric is the sort of us versus them. It seems to be an importation of divisive political rhetoric from south of the border. And so, there’s an underlying inference that there’s a scapegoating of newcomers that are impacting services available to Canadians or, or Albertans. So again, even though they pay into these programs, even though permanent residents, you could have someone here for 30 plus years that pays into CPP or EI and absolutely is entitled for healthcare coverage. That individual won’t have the gold star Alberta driver’s license that will have the internationally recognized CAN on it.

Ted Henley:                        Alright, thank you, Raj. I appreciate you making time for us this afternoon. Have a great day.

My pleasure. That was Raj Sharma immigration lawyer based in Calgary. Raj works for the firm, Stewart Sharma Harshany. We’re we’re asking you for your thoughts on this this afternoon. 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2. Or you can email those thoughts into us at Alberta at noon at CBC n ca. And I want to go right to the lines here because Scott is calling from Edmonton. I want to get some comments in here from you listening this afternoon. Scott is joining us calling from Edmonton today. Scott, welcome to the show. And what are your thoughts here?

Caller -Scott:                      I think after hearing Raj Sharma speak, it’s pretty clear that there is a real risk of people being discriminated against because of what is or isn’t on their license. And the provincial government is in the business of doing provincial things. I don’t understand why we need a national identifier on a provincial piece of of ident identification. So as you can tell, I’m a little unnerved by the whole thing. And I guess per, perhaps because I’ve been abroad and seen where people are discriminated against, either based on nationality, ethnicity, language, or religion, and I’m just concerned that that’s something that it’s, it’s open to or rife for opportunities for, for abuse. So that’s my concern and I’m hoping others will share my view.

Ted Henley:                        Alright, thank you Scott. Appreciate the call. That was Scott on the line from Edmonton. I wanna go to Tom now. Tom is calling from Calgary this afternoon. Tom, welcome to the program and, and what do you want to add to the conversation here?

Caller -Tom:                        Well, I agree with your last caller and with Raj Sharma. I thought you did a good job, by the way. I, I, I think the entire thing is nonsensical. There’s no reason to have a CAN on a Dr. Alberta driver’s license. It contributes nothing to the information that’s required as the personal qualified driver. Secondly, the minister made some stupid statement that CAN is a universal Canadian identifier maybe in his world, in my world where I try to exchange money, it’s CDN. And lastly tying this to some kind of way of preventing electoral frauds, my way of thinking is equally nonsensical. The problem we have with elections is not that the people are voting illegally, it’s that people don’t vote at all. The number of people who vote in an election is well below any kind of indicator of what the total number could possibly be based on citizenship.

So this entire thing, I think there’s some kind of hidden agenda here. I don’t understand. The other thing that disturbs me is something worked in bureaucracies. If you collect data with a racial identifier, and that’s what CAN is, you’ll start to provide information and reports with that identifier. So there will be reports saying, how many Canadian citizens got this? How many didn’t get it? How many non-Canadian got the same thing or didn’t the whole thing is racist and it has to be called out as that this is a racist policy put forward with simplistic arguments. And frankly, it’s something that should hit every civil rights person and every human rights person in this province deeply upset. And that’s basically what I think. I think it’s nonsense.

Ted Henley:                        Alright, thank, thank you Tom. I I appreciate your call this afternoon. That was Tom calling from Calgary. Anne is joining us from Edmonton today. Anne, welcome to the program. And I understand that you also think this program is not necessary.

Caller -Anne:                      I think it’s not necessary, and I also think that it will be much more difficult if you lose your driver’s license or if someone as a scammer happens to steal it. It’ll have a lot of personal information that would make it easier for you to have your identity stolen.

Ted Henley:                        Okay. yeah, definite concerns there. Okay, thank you, Anne. That was Anne calling from Edmonton. Erika Barootes and Cheryl Oates ha have been listening in since the, the top of the program today. Erika Barootes and Cheryl Oates, they both co-host the Discourse political podcast. Erika is the former principal secretary to Daniel Smith. Cheryl used to be the communications director for former Premier Rachel Notley. Erika and Cheryl, thank you for being here today and I want to get your thoughts. Let’s start with you, Cheryl, if you don’t mind, your initial thoughts about this program, like what jumped to mind to you as soon as you heard that the province was gonna be rolling this out?

Cheryl Oates:                     Yeah, thanks for having us on the show today. This is the latest to me in a long line of solutions to problems that don’t exist in Alberta. I agree with the previous people that you’ve had on the show today to say this is the, I mean, we don’t have a problem in Alberta that this provides a solution to. If it comes to election integrity. I mean, you can use your library card to demonstrate your ID at a voting station. You can use your marriage certificate, you can use your bank statement, you can use your credit card. None of those things will have a CAN marker on them. And so adding it to a driver’s license to me does not ensure any kind of making sure that it’s Canadian citizens who are voting and we talk about streamlined services. The, the government can data share across services if it chooses to the idea that someone applying for income for the severely handicapped would need to show a driver’s license with a CAN marker, and that would somehow streamline their process. Seems absurd to me. This is a blunt force, easy to understand tool that solves no problem. And like your previous guests said, probably does harm people when it comes to discrimination and exposure to information that is unnecessary.

Ted Henley:                        Okay, thank you Cheryl for that initial thoughts there. And Erika, I mean, initially what jumped to mind for you here? Well, I think you’re

Erika Barootes:                 Just Cheryl and I, no, I’m good. I’m good. Oh, very good, very good. So Cheryl and I just actually filmed our episode where we, we talked about this and I think that the question that everyone has kind of alluded to is what problem is the government solving? And I actually think that the government, even though I really liked them, didn’t maybe answer the question properly to people like even the minister coming on here. Is it about, it should be clear, is it about elections? Is it about the services provided? Is it about simplicity in the fact that he’s the minister of red tape, finding efficiencies within the system that many of us may not know are a problem, but it’s going to make our lives easier? I think that they had a challenge in communicating that. And what I say by that, the first thing that jumped out, I was like, well, two weeks ago they announced the Alberta wallet, which would be a digital version of having all of your stuff in one place.

Simplicity. I understand the UCP campaigned from 2019 on a universal ID card, which this in theory would address that campaign promise, but I haven’t really heard that in their communications. So I think that they’re trying to solve a problem that is about access to services and having all of your stuff in one place. But I actually think that they maybe haven’t answered that question clearly to Albertans. And that’s why there’s maybe pushback on this this initiative that we’re seeing. So I’ll criticize them that maybe they haven’t been clear on what the intent was. We heard three examples from the minister, I think Claire communication on exactly why, and also acknowledging what Scott with Mr. Sharma said, Scott, Tom and Anne, that there could be the implications or, or suspicion that it could lead to discrimination and actually addressing that at the forefront as opposed to dismissing it.

Ted Henley:                        Okay. thank you for that Erika and Cheryl hang tight. ’cause It’s the time of the show where we have to get a news update here, but the conversation will continue till the top of the clock today. We’re talking about changes coming next year for when you renew or apply for a new driver’s license or Alberta ID card starting late 2026. You’ll have to prove your citizenship now to get this identification. And if you’re Canadian, it will be displayed with a giant, well, not giant, a large CAN in the top right corner area of your id. Are you comfortable with this having your citizenship on your license? Will you find it convenient or are you concerned here? 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2 Alberta at noon at CBC ca Back to the conversation in just a couple of minutes because we just have to get A-C-B-C-C-B-C news update now with Tara Ferus and hi Tara.

…My Name is Ted Henley filling in for Kathleen Petty this week. You’re listening to Alberta at noon, and today we’re talking about changes coming next year for when you renew your driver’s license or Alberta ID card or apply to get a brand new one started in late 2026. You’ll have to prove your citizenship now, and if you’re Canadian, a CAN in capitals will be displayed on your id. Here’s Service Alberta and Red Tape Reduction Minister Dale o’ Nally.

Dale Nally:                           We have heard from Albertans loud and clear, they want less identification cards in their wallet, not more. So this is just giving Albertans what they want. It’s gonna make their life simpler. It’s gonna make their life better because they’re not gonna have to be fumbling to find a burst to give it every time they go to apply for, for benefits.

Ted Henley:                        The province says it’ll help people as well when they’re applying for programs like h the assured income for the Severely Handicapped. Also PDD, that’s the Per Persons with Developmental Disabilities Program. And of course there’s Alberta Student Aid. The citizenship marker will roll out right around the same time. Your Alberta Health number will start appearing on your ID that the province says. What will help figure out why that being the Canadian designation will help figure out why there are approximately 530,000 more Alberta healthcare numbers than the total population.

Dale Nally:                           This is the very reason why we have to do this initiative because our the way a HS was doing it previously just lacked security or lacked controls. So we are going to, in in the fall, fall of 2026, we will now know who has Alberta healthcare cards and, and and, and there won’t be half a million fake ones, which opens up the door for, for abuses.

Ted Henley:                        Are you comfortable with having your citizenship on your license or Alberta id? Will you find it convenient? Do you want to have to prove your citizenship to simply perhaps just drive a vehicle in Alberta? 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2. Perhaps you wanna weigh in on if you trust the province and what they’re doing here with this 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2. Or you can email your thoughts to us at alberta@noonatcbc.ca. Erika, bro and Cheryl Oates are with us till the top of the clock. This afternoon Erika and Cheryl co-host a political podcast called The Discourse. Erika is the former principal secretary to Danielle Smith. Cheryl used to be the communications director for former Premier Rachel Knotley. Before I get back to Erika and Cheryl, I want to get a couple more calls in here. Charles is on the line joining us from Edmonton today. Charles, what are your thoughts on regarding these changes kicking in fall of next year?

Caller -Charles:                  Hello?

Ted Henley:                        Hello, Charles?

Caller -Charles:                  Yes I have a couple of comments. This card may solve some problems the government has, but it has a tremendous impact on the personal privacy of all citizens. What they’re really doing is saying, let’s move it. This is called function creep, is that you have a card and you say, oh, good, we could do this on that. We could do that on that. And what that does is it impacts all the citizens of the province. So as an example, you put the healthcare on there. If I have to provide that ID to a hotel or to a car rental agency, what business is it of theirs, what my healthcare number is? And I think that makes me very much against the idea of this card, not specifically for the Canadian citizenship. I’m, I don’t know enough about that to have an opinion, but certainly the, the privacy aspect and the desire of this government to increasingly control the wrong word, to increasingly have information on a piece of cardboard that can be shared much more widely than an individual may want to share. And I can give them a, you know, if, if the province is initiated a process whereby only limited people could ask for that driver ID, then I’m all in favor. But since even the minister talked about car rental agencies and hotels, well then my personal information is being shared much more widely than I would share it. And I am, should be the one in control of my personal information.

Ted Henley:                        All right, Charles, thank you for that. I appreciate your thoughts. That was Charles on the line from Edmonton there. I wanna bring Aaron from Calgary into the conversation. Erin, I, I understand Erin, you work in the rental vehicle business and Charles just, I do. Charles just said that he would be uncomfortable, you know, showing his Alberta Health number, for example, to someone while he’s trying to just rent a car.

Caller -Erin:                         Yeah. And I absolutely agree with him. As a, a person who works at a rental car agency, I don’t need your citizenship information and I don’t need your Alberta healthcare information. So why should it be on there? All I need to know is that you’re a licensed driver.

Ted Henley:                        Yeah, I understand. And, and what about, you know, I’m just thinking landlords, for example, who, you know, are trying to drop a lease and they need some government issued ID to put, you know the name, use my name for example. You put Ted Henley down, wants to rent this property, pay so many thousand per month, et cetera, et cetera. Are, would you be comfortable with, you know, as a landlord, I mean, do you think landlords should know whether I’m Canadian or not? I

Caller -Erin:                         Absolutely not. So when, especially when you’re dealing with limited commodities like housing and rental cars when you’re down to the wire and you only have one unit left and you have three applications and one of them is from a citizen and two of them aren’t, that is leaving the door open for tons of discrimination. Alright,

Ted Henley:                        Thank you Aaron appreciate the phone call this afternoon. I wanna bring one more caller in because Rhonda’s joining us from Edmonton and Rhonda welcome to the show, first of all, and I understand that you’re okay with this.

Caller -Rhonda:                 Yep. I think it’s a great idea. I think that should have photo ID when we go to the poll and I’m okay. I would love to have a Plasticized Alberta healthcare card and I’m okay with it. I got nothing to hide. I, I don’t, I’m not worried about discrimination or secrecy or conspiracy theories or any of it. I, I think more tools to simplify, streamline efficiency, make my wallet smaller I, it doesn’t bother me at all. Okay.

Ted Henley:                        All right. Thanks Rhonda. I appreciate that. That was Rhonda calling from Edmonton. Wow. All different opinions this afternoon. A majority of callers so far are raising issues with this, but I’m glad Rhonda called to explain why she’s comfortable with these changes. And, and Erika and Cheryl, I wanna bring you back into the conversation. Cheryl, I wanna come back to you because you said this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. <Laugh> that was your initial reaction to this and the thoughts that jumped into your head. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Let’s talk about the Alberta health numbers though, and the premier saying that there’s, you know, roughly 530,000, I forget the exact number more Alberta Health numbers than there are people living in the province. Would this not address that issue?

Cheryl Oates:                     I have no problem at all with Alberta Health numbers being added to driver’s licenses. This is done in many jurisdictions across the country, and frankly, I’m embarrassed every time I hand over my flimsy beaten up Alberta healthcare card to to use in the, in the healthcare system. Also, the paper cards obviously are a lot less secure than adding it to the driver’s license would be. So when it comes to the healthcare cards, I have, I have no criticism. I would love to have the, those two cards merge to one.

Ted Henley:                        Okay, great. To be honest with you, I can’t remember the last time I showed somebody my health card. I just give them my driver’s license and, you know, they can look up who, you know, Ted Henley’s, Alberta Health number is

Caller -Sandra:                   Mm-Hmm <affirmative>.

Ted Henley:                        And when you go to a walk-in or a merge or something like that so, so the issue then for you, Cheryl, is the Canadian citizenship that that designation, you’re saying that’s a problem that simply doesn’t exist.

Cheryl Oates:                     Yeah, I carry a card in my wallet right now for my Alberta Health Care number. You wanna make that one card with my driver’s license. That helps me when it comes to the Alberta government putting a Canadian stamp on driver’s licenses. I don’t know what problem this fix is. In what instance are people being asked to prove their citizenship in tandem with their, like, to have that stamp? I’m not sure that would, what that would help in, in places where you actually need to prove your citizenship, specifically your citizenship. We have a document for that and it can’t be merged with any other document. We have a passport or a citizenship card or a permanent resident card. But I don’t see an instance where a CAN stamp on your driver’s license is gonna help you,

Ted Henley:                        Erika, politically, what’s going on here?

Erika Barootes:                 Mean, well, I would say, yeah, I, I actually, I’m, I’m really glad you asked that because I’m hearing from a lot of your, your folks specifically specifically Aaron, who said, you know, I work for a car rental agency and, and I shouldn’t know that information then great. Don’t look at it. That is an instance where you need to, there’s a lot of information when you go to a hotel and you give your driver’s license. They don’t need to know you drive a car. That’s not why you’re at the hotel. So I think that there is a simplicity to Cheryl’s I very much support and the UCPS campaign since 2019 on a universal ID card, which includes the healthcare. I think the government probably should have rolled all of this out at once to avoid maybe these one-off fractures that we’re, we’re seeing come out such as discrimination.

But you know, there is the opportunity for a landlord to know more information. I’ve had to say if I’m a Canadian citizen on applying to rent places before on jobs that’s been asked. So there is scenarios, law enforcement, do we think law enforcement are gonna use that maliciously? Like I think that some of the callers, I find it a little bit pessimistic that they’re looking for the fact that this will already default. I mean, physicians, I think they’re pretty good. People don’t think they’re gonna use that maliciously hotel check-ins. They don’t need to use that. If you don’t want the government to know, use a different piece of government issued id, there is more out there that you can use. So I see this as to Cheryl’s point, what problem are we solving? I think it is about the ability to have less cards. My criticism of the government, as I’ve said before, is that they, they, they, they kind of ad hoc a lot of this. They’re adding the CAN when they should have just done that at the same time as the universal ID card of your health card, as well as that Alberta wallet that rolled out. I think that would’ve been far more. This is the holistic approach. It’s not political. It’s, we have a MR of red tape reduction that’s looking for efficiencies and also to address some data concerns we have here is all the things we’re doing. I think that maybe how they communicated it is what’s causing more confusion than the policies itself.

Ted Henley:                        Okay. It’s a comms issue. But, but I’m not sure that you answered my question, Erika. So what,

Erika Barootes:                 What, I don’t think there’s anything political.

Ted Henley:                        Oh, to be honest,

Erika Barootes:                 You want me to say it? I don’t think this is political move. I think there’s like some of your callers that are trying to make it political.

Caller -Anne:                      Okay.

Erika Barootes:                 Do I think Cheryl’s possibly, right? That like they’re not clear on being very direct and what problem are we solving? But I don’t think that’s a political issue. I think that’s a comms issue.

Ted Henley:                        How about you Cheryl? Do you think there’s politics at play here?

Cheryl Oates:                     Oh, there’s always politics at play with this government. I’m just not sure. Like obviously there is

Ted Henley:                        Is a, with any, with any government chair,

Cheryl Oates:                     Any

Ted Henley:                        Government, not just this one.

Cheryl Oates:                     Yes. But, but you know, today, this one there is likely, like you heard the minister earlier on the show, say we’re hearing from Albertans all over the place that really want this. Obviously there is a specific portion of the UCPs base that would like citizenship declared on driver’s licenses. This has been the impetus for many political decisions since Daniel Smith became premier. And I imagine this is the only thing I can imagine prompted this change as well, is that there’s a group of people who are worried about people who in their minds shouldn’t be accessing Alberta social services or Alberta elections. And they are, and in their minds, this would make it easier to weed those people out. But like I said before, and you, and we, and we’ve talked about, Erika says like, if you don’t wanna know the information, don’t look at it. But it, it’s just like, it’s just not realistic to think that everyone in Alberta who gets this information will not discriminate against someone if they don’t have ca n on their license, it will happen. I’m not saying everyone will do it, of course not, but it will happen. Discrimination exists. We have to accept that.

Ted Henley:                        Yeah, there, there’s definitely gonna be two camps. Is there not Cheryl, like, there there’s gonna be the CAN people and there’s gonna be the blank people, I suppose, for lack of a better description. So the, I guess what you’re saying is, if I understand you correctly, anytime you have something divided, there is going to be people with thoughts either way and that’s where the discrimination comes in.

Cheryl Oates:                     Yeah. I mean to say that discrimination doesn’t exist in Alberta, like that is just choosing to look the other way. Of course, discrimination exists in Alberta. I’m certainly not saying that every person who read an ID card that had this new marker on it would use that information maliciously or they would use it to discriminate. But it will happen, it will happen in instances where people have that information and they make a decision based on it where they wouldn’t have had that factor in their decision making process had the government not introduced this had

Ted Henley:                        It not been on that, that card. Okay. Gotcha. Thanks Cheryl. What about you listening this afternoon? What are your thoughts on this? We’re talking about the changes coming fall of next year when you renew or apply to get a brand new driver’s license or Alberta ID card starting next year. You’re gonna have to prove your citizenship to get access to these pieces of id. And if you’re Canadian, you will get a CAN stamped on that id. What are your thoughts on this? Are you comfortable with having your citizenship on your driver’s license? Will you find it convenient? We’ve had at least one caller saying that they’re for this, this is great. It’ll cut down on the number of things they have to carry around. Or do you have concerns here? 1-866-468-FOUR 4 2 2. Or you can email us at alberta@noonatcbc.ca. Sandra is calling us from Peace River this afternoon. Sandra, welcome to the program. And what are your thoughts here, Sandra? I

Caller -Sandra:                   Thank you. Yeah, I, I have zero problem with it. I think it is a matter of efficiency. I don’t think there’s any sinister motivations behind it. My mom was a BC resident and her Alberta, or her BC service card, her healthcare card and her license were in one card. There’s already legislation that prohibits people from spreading your private information. Already we give out our private information and we trust those laws to, to make sure that it doesn’t get, you know, used where it shouldn’t be. And as far as being identified as a Canadian on my driver’s license, I think that’s great. We, it’s, I don’t know exactly how it can be used necessarily for discrimination. I mean, some, one of your previous callers mentioned race. Well, there are many races that are Canadian. It, it’s a, it’s a Canadian identifier as a citizen, not as a race. So, and some people might, there might be some people that are thinking, yeah, Canadian citizens should, citizens maybe should have some advantages in some things.

Ted Henley:                        Okay, thank you Sandra. That was Sandra calling from Peace River this afternoon. Esther is calling from Calgary. Esther, welcome to the show. And what do you wanna add to, to the conversation today?

Caller -Esther:                    I just want to add one or two things. An example, nowadays nobody issues social insurance cards anymore. You are given a normal printout and that’s enough for you. I’m not sure why they can’t do that for healthcare numbers. And secondly, the issue of discrimination as the previous caller call said, it’s very easy to say that it won’t happen when you are on the right side of the equation. I’ll just give an example of when I was a student. I went to get healthcare service at a clinic and the staff looked at me and said she must be a refugee. And I was made to wait until everybody else had left. So I arrived at 10, got service at like three. These things do happen to people, and the fact that people are downplaying them is surprising. And finally, my question is, if this information is necessary, why not have it as a hidden feature that only the registry people can see so that when I walk around with my driver’s license, nobody knows whether I’m Canadian or not. It’s not necessary as I as everybody else has been saying, for all those other people to know. This information will only be useful in let me see when we’re voting, for example. So it doesn’t have to be visible. If you want, you can have it as an indicator in the background, but not on the card.

Ted Henley:                        Okay. Thanks for that

Caller -Esther:                    That’s just my thought.

Ted Henley:                        All right. That, thank you for that, Esther. That was Esther calling from Calgary, and I’ll get one more caller in here. Brian is on the line from Edmonton. Brian, welcome to the program. And I understand that you’re in the, I don’t see a reason for this camp.

Caller -Brian:                      I’m sorry? Are you talking to me?

Ted Henley:                        Yes, Brian, how are you?

Caller -Brian:                      Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry sir. Yes, I don’t see a reason for it because there’s four provinces that discontinued it and BC’s in the process of winding it down. And the other thing is Alberta Healthcare it’s great to have it on your driver’s license, but what about your children? Where are they gonna be listed?

Ted Henley:                        Oh, that’s a, that’s a good point. I believe this is just for adults or I guess people who, you know, are, are able to get a driver’s license. Brian, I think that’s the, the age kind of cutoff. I, I haven’t heard anything for younger people.

Caller -Brian:                      Well, because you have, when your child is born, you issued a a healthcare number.

Ted Henley:                        Oh, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I’m talking about regarding this. Oh, I see what you’re saying. What about your kids’ cards here? Maybe,

Caller -Brian:                      Yeah.

Ted Henley:                        Yeah, I’m not sure. That’s a good question.

Caller -Brian:                      And then, and then their citizenship too. Where are they gonna be listed?

Ted Henley:                        Yeah, I’m not sure. Interesting question there, Brian. Thank you for that. That was Brian on the line from Edmonton. Erika, I want to bring, bring you back into the conversation regarding voting and, you know, having that Canadian designation on a driver’s license or Alberta id the province yesterday. You know what, maybe I should, I’m just wondering if I do have a clip here that will kind of explain what they were saying. No, unfortunately I didn’t pull one unfortunately. But the province was saying that this will also help with voting fraud, Erika, and like is it that big of an issue that we need this on a driver’s license, in your opinion?

Erika Barootes:                 I mean, I think that that is one of the most convenient purposes of having this CAN besides pure patriotism of being proud that you’re a Canadian citizen. And I really do appreciate I believe her name was Sandra was saying

Ted Henley:                        Sandra,

Erika Barootes:                 Yes. Yes, that it was like we, you know, I think this conversation is like kind of being negative about being a Canadian citizen, but I know that wasn’t your question. It was on the election side of things. So when you go and you vote in an election, you have to be a Canadian citizen to vote. If that’s already on your ID card, I know if I have the wrong address. You know, there’s ways around fraud of voting in the wrong location if I haven’t updated my ID and there’s, you know, you have to bring other pieces of id, maybe a utility bill, all these other things. One of the big things is are you 18 years of age, which your driver license shows? Are you a Canadian citizen that now it will show you don’t have to have any other piece of identification if your address is correct.

So one stop shop for election, and unfortunately I do respect one of your callers that said we should also focus on getting more people out to vote. But truth be told, we do have people that have election fraud or vote in the wrong location or anything like that, or try when they’re not a Canadian citizen. This just makes it an easier process. And if we are trying to get more people to vote and we discourage them because they didn’t bring 17 pieces of paper to justify that they are meeting all the requirements that’s discouraging them as well. So why not put it on one card?

Ted Henley:                        I always thought you just had to declare Erika that you’re Canadian and then you just had to prove

Erika Barootes:                 Yeah, there’s people that don’t, though <laugh>, there’s, I could say yes, and I’m then a horrible person if I’m not, but like, if we’re going to have it, then an actual step

Ted Henley:                        And,

Erika Barootes:                 And it avoids that fraudulent potential.

Ted Henley:                        Sure. so I have to declare, and then I also have to show that, you know, Ted Henley leaves at lives at such and such address, which

Erika Barootes:                 Is like, don’t say your address, Ted.

Ted Henley:                        I, I’m not, I’m not <laugh>. But you know what I mean, like, I just have to prove that I live in this writing, so I’m writing or voting in the correct writing, and then I declare I’m Canadian. And, and I guess has it been a big issue already up to this point that we have people declaring that instead of actually having it stamped on a, a, you know, government issued id? ’cause They’re not, you’re not required to show a passport.

Erika Barootes:                 Right. I think that with our huge influx of immigration coming here to Canada with our significant growth in Alberta, I mean, there’s a health issue of having too many health cards. I do think that, I don’t know if statistically in the last election this was a huge issue. I know issues had been raised. I don’t have stats in front of me to point to answer your exact question, but I do think that there is a growing concern that people may not be Canadian citizens and say they are. So why not just put it on a a piece? Alternatively, I think we’re at a point in our country where you’ll have to bring your passport.

Ted Henley:                        Okay. But we so Alberta is one of, you know, <laugh> so many jurisdictions in, are you saying that now all of the provinces and territories have to follow suit to make sure you have that Canadian stamp on there? Or can we just continue with the process that up until now, well,

Erika Barootes:                 That’s up to the other provinces. If they realize that this makes sense because we’re addressing an issue, then sure. Okay. I mean, everyone has to leave. Like someone’s gotta do it if it’s the right thing to do. Just because we do it doesn’t mean it’s not right or that Ontario’s wrong. People can make that decision.

Ted Henley:                        Sure. I’m just wondering up hun, how many years we’re into elections right now? That is just coming up now, <laugh> that we’re not having to show a passport, Cheryl. I see, I see you kind of moving your head around there in the Zoom camera. You you wanted to add to this? I’m

Cheryl Oates:                     Just, I’m laughing, I was on mute, but I’m laughing because the fact that Erika has to tie herself in knots to justify why this change is necessary should be all Albertans need to hear. If you were in a SP position in anywhere in Canada or in Alberta where you previously needed to show a passport to prove your citizenship, you still need to, to show a passport. This doesn’t change anything for the vast majority of people entering a polling station, they’re just showing their voter card or their id. And that’s not gonna change. For the issue of whether we have people voting in our elections that shouldn’t be voting. We don’t, this has been investigated, this has been proven. We do not have people voting in our elections that shouldn’t be voting. So once again, this is the government solving a problem that doesn’t exist. And for those callers calling in saying like, well, I don’t mind, it doesn’t hurt me to have my citizenship on there, they’re Canadian citizens that are calling in. So some people will be concerned about sharing information, but it’s the people who will be discriminated against because they don’t have that stamp that are concerned. Of course, people who have Canadian citizen citizenship stamps are calling and saying they’re not concerned. It doesn’t really affect them other than information sharing.

Erika Barootes:                 I I, I don’t think that’s fair, Cheryl, though, because we don’t know that every one of the supporters I, as I’m not, I don’t know if Scott and Tom and Anne were Canadian citizens, so that or they weren’t. Right? No, the

Cheryl Oates:                     Two that said they supported it said they’re Canadian citizens.

Erika Barootes:                 I know, but I’m saying you can’t assume that everyone that doesn’t, isn’t in a situation where like they’re, they’re frustrated. They, they’re, they’re sitting there saying that they don’t want this and that it’s gonna cause discrimination. I don’t know how you can say that, like when you’re arguing that just because they support it, they have to be Canadian citizens.

Ted Henley:                        It’s, it’s a, it’s a fair point. I understand Erika’s point there and I understand what Cheryl’s saying as well that you know it, I guess to be continued right, Erika and Cheryl and everyone listening today this is taking effect as we heard the minister stay off the top of the program. It will be kicking in some time in the fall. The legislation will have to, of course, be tabled first and work its way through the legislature and then it will become law. I’m really curious, I’m really curious where this conversation’s gonna go and maybe the digitization of everything is what’s coming up next here and, you know, kind of that Alberta wallet that we, I forget if it was Erika or Cheryl off the top of the program that discussed this, but to be continued.

Thank you Erika. I appreciate your time today and squeezing us in Cheryl as well. Thank you. That’s Erika Barootes and Cheryl Oates. They co-host the Discourse their political podcast and I believe Erika mentioned that their latest edition of the podcast, their latest episode is on this very issue. If you want to dig a little bit deeper here Erika, of course, the former principal secretary to Danielle Smith. Cheryl used to be the communications director for former Premier Rachel Notley. And of course, thank you for all of your calls and emails. Always great to talk about issues on this program. My name is Ted Henley and let’s talk again tomorrow.