Adrienne Arsenault:

War and persecution and poverty have put this planet on the move. As physically removed as Canada may be from some of that, this country cannot escape the reality of people trying to find refuge here. But who’s coming, how they’re being treated, is the sort of subject that sometimes draws far more heat than light here. It gets angry very fast.

We’ll be tackling the matter of migration, throughout the next few months. But who’s fleeing, what are they running from? These are questions we need to answer. Tonight though, in The National Conversation, it is time to talk about one border in particular, Canada’s.

Pam Damoff:

Is there a crisis in Canada, right now?

Ralph Goodale:

There is a challenge, but it is not a crisis.

Adrienne Arsenault:

With Canada’s border, there is rhetoric and reality. Two years ago the RCMP arrested 2,400 people crossing the border irregularly. So far this year, it’s more than 12,000.

Border Guard:

Are you sure that you want the beginning of your life in Canada to start with a [crosstalk 00:01:08]?

Immigrants:

Yeah. Definitely. Yes.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Some may think this is a matter of people sneaking in, but these people are looking to be found. Because once the RCMP puts them in handcuffs, the legal process of claiming asylum begins. But as claims pile up, so do some questions and some serious costs. The Parliamentary Budget Office says, more than $270 million has been spent since early 2017.

Michelle Rempel:

Mayors and premiers across Canada are asking Prime Minister Trudeau for help coping with the overburdened homeless shelters and food banks.

Adrienne Arsenault:

There’s an election next year and it seems all sides are playing politics with migration. Canadians just want some answers and the truth.

Speaker 8:

My question would probably be why we are spending millions and millions of dollars?

Peter V.:

How do we keep the process fair?

Jaya Beange:

How do we hold on to strong Canadian values?

Adrienne Arsenault:

All right. So, at the table tonight, to try to help us out with this, Jean-Nicolas Beuze is the Canadian representative for the UN High Commission for Refugees. Avvy Go, you are the executive director of the Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic. I know you’ve been dealing with newcomers for a very long time. Raj Sharma, you have handled hundreds of cases with the Refugee Board. You’re an immigration lawyer, in Calgary, right now. Right?

So, I know you all know your stuff, which is why you’re here. We need you to help us with some of this crucially … If we can start by talking about the language, it’s so explosive in this country. The language is so loaded. So what are people talking about? Is it migrants? Is it refugees? Is it asylum seekers? Raj?

Raj Sharma:

I think terminology is important. I think language is important. How we frame things is important. Unfortunately, there’s been a lot of politics. We’re playing politics with individuals lives. In terms of language, there’s refugee claimants.

Refugee claimants can come to a port of entry or they can enter Canada and make an inland refugee claim. That is perfectly allowed under our law. In fact, that is expressly allowed under our law.

Adrienne Arsenault:

You talked about crossing and this is something that we talk about all the time. You hear people say illegal crossing, or irregular crossing, which is it really?

Jean-Nicolas B.:

It’s actually irregular crossing, because people who arrive, including when they don’t show up at the port of entry, but enter irregularly in between port of entry, when the claims are resumed, they cannot be punished for having done so. It’s very simple, if you live Yemen, if you leave Syria, you cannot necessarily get your passport, you cannot necessarily get a visa, and be able to travel like other people do. So, you cannot be punished for the act of coming, including at Lacolle, near Lacolle, at Roxham Road, where people, 13,000 this year, have entered through irregular means, in Canada, to seek safety.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay. This conversation gets very hot, very fast. You know, you see people on online effectively shouting at each other at it. Avvy, do you have a sense of why this pushes so many buttons?

Avvy Go:

I think we need to look at the historical context. This is not the first time conversation about refugees resulted in a lot of heated debate in Canada. We have a very checkered history, when it comes to the acceptance of refugees. Like, for instance, during the Second World War, we turn away Jewish refugees. However, in the 70s, we opened our arms to many refugees. From Chilean refugees, as well as refugees, Indo-Chinese refugees.

So today, I think one of the reasons why we’re having once again this heated debate is because a lot of the politicians, unfortunately, see it as a wedge issues. You know, it doesn’t help when we have a president, in the United States, making comments about you know sort of refugees in a very negative way. Even here, in Canada, many of our politicians are also talking about refugees as a way of making political gains, blaming them for all kinds of society ills that have been around for many, many years.

Adrienne Arsenault:

And may have nothing to do with them, at all?

Avvy Go:

Exactly.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay. We want to go to … If I may for a second, because we want to hear some of the questions that people have. We have one question, from Calgary, let’s have a listen to this.

Peter V.:

How do we keep the process fair for people who are going through the proper procedures and the proper route? I’m very pro-immigration, but I guess I am opposed to people who jump the queue.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay. I want to add to that, because the language in that it is interesting. Is there actually a queue?

Raj Sharma:

Is there a queue? No, there is no queue for inland refugee claims. They are not jumping a queue. They’re not displacing anyone else from any other queue. There is a processing for government-sponsored and private sponsored refugees. That is unaffected by inland refugee claims.

Jean-Nicolas B.:

At the end of the day, it’s the Immigration and Refugee Board which will decide who should stay in Canada to be protected as a refugee or who is not entitled to the refugee protection and may have to depart the country.

Raj Sharma:

So, there is no queue. But there is, now, a 55,000 strong backlog at the Immigration Refugee Board.

Adrienne Arsenault:

That has to be dealt with and could take a long time. All right. Let’s go to another question here, from Toronto. This is one we hear all the time.

Speaker 15:

Is the government vetting them very carefully for the two specific things? One, their dire need. Their true, justified, dire need to actually leave the situation they’re in and their safety. Their background, whether or not they have any grudges or things that could be dangerous for Canada.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay. Avvy, you see these people all the time. What is the vetting? What’s happening?

Avvy Go:

I’ll do with the deal issue, because I don’t think that our government is really actually responding truly to the needs of the refugees. They’re not eligible for many of the benefits that are being granted to either conventional refugees, or immigrants, or citizens. In fact, we’re not actually providing for the needs of the refugees, particularly those who are making inland claims.

Adrienne Arsenault:

What about the vetting though?

Jean-Nicolas B.:

Having said that-

Adrienne Arsenault:

Security and whatnot.

Jean-Nicolas B.:

Yeah. I go to Lacolle, to Roxham Road, every other month. I can reassure everyone that the RCMP is there. They are preempting the asylum who will cross irregularly. They do a background check, security wise. They check Interpol database. They check their own database, with some friendly country as well.

It’s only when they have the guarantee that the person is not a threat for the Canadian citizens that they will release this person. Actually, there is less than 1% of the people who enter irregularly, who are being arrested on suspicion of criminality.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay, so you brought up the numbers question. This is a big one. We have a question here, from Facebook. The question was, do we have real numbers and what we need to deal with? Raj, numbers?

Raj Sharma:

We do now have some real numbers. Since February 2017, we’re looking at around 30,000, or so. the reality is that it is a surge. It’s an uptick of claims from previous years. I would say that this is more than what we’re used to. It is certainly more than the capacity of the Refugee Protection Division. The RPD can handle 20,000 cases per year, so this is far in excess of our capacity, but those are the numbers, at present. I guess-

Adrienne Arsenault:

Where are they coming from?

Raj Sharma:

The top three countries, right now, number one is Nigeria. Number two is Haiti, of course, with the cancellation of the TPS in the US. Number three, right now, is Turkey. Then, the numbers drop after that or … Again it is interesting, because I don’t want to be some sort of, you know, doomsayer, but you’ve got the end of TPS status for probably about 400,000 individuals in the US, come September 2019.

Jean-Nicolas B.:

And its-

Raj Sharma:

So, these numbers could pale in significance. This could be the calm before the storm, before those individuals have to make that decision. You know? And they’re between a rock and a hard place, right now.

Jean-Nicolas B.:

Raj, if I may? If I may? Last year, we heard that there will be … in June, this year, we heard that there will be a peak in the numbers, in August. The numbers are three to four times less than August 2017. Nobody has a crystal ball. It’s around 50 people who cross irregularly, as we speak now, while last year was more around 200, with peak up to 300. So, I would really be very careful about making projections.

Raj Sharma:

But no one projected, in 2016, that there would be 30,000 in the next 18 months either. I think it would be foolish not to understand the powder keg that is in the US, right now.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay, let’s go on to a values question. We have a question, from Winnipeg. If we can have a listen to this.

Jaya Beange:

As we welcome new people into Canada, how do we hold on to values that we consider to be strong Canadian values, while at the same time enriching the Canadian identity with insights that we gain from these new neighbors?

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay. I know that word. I felt all of you sort of lift out of your chairs at the term values. Just very briefly, for our last answer here, what’s your response to that?

Jean-Nicolas B.:

Canadians should be extremely proud of the way the authorities and the civil society are reacting to this slight increase of people coming to Canada to seek safety. Part of the Canadian values is to welcome those who are fearing for their life, for the life of their children. I think it’s proven, once again, that Canadians are standing up, like the Bangladeshi, like the Ugandans, are standing up for their brother and sisters. I shall just leave the auditors with one last number. Canada receives 0.2% of the total numbers of refugees, so I think globally.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay. Avvy?

Avvy Go:

As a Canadian, I believe that our values include welcoming all, opening our border to people who are in need. As well as, at the same time, accepting immigrants, who can help our country grow. Refugees are part of that population that will help us prosper, in the long run. I also believe in equality. I don’t think that by welcoming more people, we’ll somehow diminish our commitment to equality. In fact, it will help us open our minds, and our perspectives, to understanding the different views, and life stories, and experiences of different, from all over the world. That will make us stronger.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Raj, last word? Briefly.

Raj Sharma:

I think the US has abdicated its values that’s inscribed in the Statue of Liberty. I think it’s up to Canada to now shoulder part of that burden. I think that we will and that’s part of our values.

Adrienne Arsenault:

Okay, Raj Sharma, Avvy Go, Jean-Nicolas Beuze, thank you all very much for your insights. This is just one of many national conversations we’re going to have here. We see you online, talking amongst yourselves, about issues that unite and divide, and we want to tackle them. The borders are a very good start. We’ll be exploring more about them in the days to come. Thanks.